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	<title>Comments on: Post Denominationalism-The Kingdom is Moving</title>
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	<link>http://iemissional.com/2008/05/09/post-denominationalism-the-kingdom-is-moving/</link>
	<description>teaching. glocalizing. living. serving. repenting. incarnating. loving. repeating.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 18:05:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Bryan Riley</title>
		<link>http://iemissional.com/2008/05/09/post-denominationalism-the-kingdom-is-moving/#comment-1655</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Riley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 10:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iemissional.com/?p=103#comment-1655</guid>
		<description>Never forget, though , the power of cross cultural mission. God really uses diversity to do amazing things.  We need both/and, not either/or.  It is amazing the doors that open to me, as an American, in some countries, that don't open to local pastors.  At the same time, in some countries doors don't open to Americans and we need strong local Christians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Never forget, though , the power of cross cultural mission. God really uses diversity to do amazing things.  We need both/and, not either/or.  It is amazing the doors that open to me, as an American, in some countries, that don&#8217;t open to local pastors.  At the same time, in some countries doors don&#8217;t open to Americans and we need strong local Christians.</p>
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		<title>By: Marty Duren</title>
		<link>http://iemissional.com/2008/05/09/post-denominationalism-the-kingdom-is-moving/#comment-1619</link>
		<dc:creator>Marty Duren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 14:59:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iemissional.com/?p=103#comment-1619</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Tony and thanks for dropping in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Tony and thanks for dropping in.</p>
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		<title>By: tony sheng</title>
		<link>http://iemissional.com/2008/05/09/post-denominationalism-the-kingdom-is-moving/#comment-1607</link>
		<dc:creator>tony sheng</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 20:41:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iemissional.com/?p=103#comment-1607</guid>
		<description>great post Marty - some really important info that most American Christians have no idea about....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>great post Marty - some really important info that most American Christians have no idea about&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Marty Duren</title>
		<link>http://iemissional.com/2008/05/09/post-denominationalism-the-kingdom-is-moving/#comment-1562</link>
		<dc:creator>Marty Duren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 23:12:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iemissional.com/?p=103#comment-1562</guid>
		<description>Alan-
Agreed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan-<br />
Agreed.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Cross</title>
		<link>http://iemissional.com/2008/05/09/post-denominationalism-the-kingdom-is-moving/#comment-1561</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Cross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 23:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iemissional.com/?p=103#comment-1561</guid>
		<description>Marty,

Even if it is a little more expense wise, you are still encouraging the indigenous church to take ownership over the mission - even if you are funding it for a time. Indians reaching Indians or Ukranians reaching Russians is better than Americans doing it all because it spreads the responsibility for reaching the world across the world. It will happen much faster that way, instead of locking up the mission in the hands of the very expensive and highly trained American missionary force.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marty,</p>
<p>Even if it is a little more expense wise, you are still encouraging the indigenous church to take ownership over the mission - even if you are funding it for a time. Indians reaching Indians or Ukranians reaching Russians is better than Americans doing it all because it spreads the responsibility for reaching the world across the world. It will happen much faster that way, instead of locking up the mission in the hands of the very expensive and highly trained American missionary force.</p>
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		<title>By: Marty Duren</title>
		<link>http://iemissional.com/2008/05/09/post-denominationalism-the-kingdom-is-moving/#comment-1557</link>
		<dc:creator>Marty Duren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 21:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iemissional.com/?p=103#comment-1557</guid>
		<description>Art, Bryan, Alan, Camel-
A year or so ago, the cry went out from the IMB that we needed to send more M's to the field.  I think that idea was to "tithe" our members to international fields or something along that line. I had just returned from Brazil where we had discussed the potential adaptability of Latin missionaries to middle eastern cultures due to the similarities.  I raised the issue of using American dollars (of which there were plenty) to train and support missionaries from other nations, especially those that might more easily penetrate certain closed cultures.  The answer was that those nations (such as Brazil) were responsible to send their own missionaries that we didn't need to use American money for that.

One of our next steps will be to support (or find support for) two national pastors in our Siberian republic.  It will be a little more than in India, but still much less than sending an American.  If we eventually partner with a Ukrainian or Belorussian it might be a little more than a national, but will still be less than an American.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Art, Bryan, Alan, Camel-<br />
A year or so ago, the cry went out from the IMB that we needed to send more M&#8217;s to the field.  I think that idea was to &#8220;tithe&#8221; our members to international fields or something along that line. I had just returned from Brazil where we had discussed the potential adaptability of Latin missionaries to middle eastern cultures due to the similarities.  I raised the issue of using American dollars (of which there were plenty) to train and support missionaries from other nations, especially those that might more easily penetrate certain closed cultures.  The answer was that those nations (such as Brazil) were responsible to send their own missionaries that we didn&#8217;t need to use American money for that.</p>
<p>One of our next steps will be to support (or find support for) two national pastors in our Siberian republic.  It will be a little more than in India, but still much less than sending an American.  If we eventually partner with a Ukrainian or Belorussian it might be a little more than a national, but will still be less than an American.</p>
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		<title>By: Camel Rider</title>
		<link>http://iemissional.com/2008/05/09/post-denominationalism-the-kingdom-is-moving/#comment-1556</link>
		<dc:creator>Camel Rider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 20:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iemissional.com/?p=103#comment-1556</guid>
		<description>Interesting point Alan...
I've always heard about our fear of creating nationals that are dependent on Western money when we ourselves are dependent on western money. The interesting thing is the double standard that we have with this.  If a national works on the same field for a lifetime with very little fruit or much to show we would cut their funding but we allow it with our own people....interesting...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting point Alan&#8230;<br />
I&#8217;ve always heard about our fear of creating nationals that are dependent on Western money when we ourselves are dependent on western money. The interesting thing is the double standard that we have with this.  If a national works on the same field for a lifetime with very little fruit or much to show we would cut their funding but we allow it with our own people&#8230;.interesting&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan Riley</title>
		<link>http://iemissional.com/2008/05/09/post-denominationalism-the-kingdom-is-moving/#comment-1552</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Riley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 20:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iemissional.com/?p=103#comment-1552</guid>
		<description>Alan, keep up the great work.  It requires doing what you do to accomplish this, because you needed to see the man in ministry to know that he is truly doing Kingdom work, but you are spot on to find such indigenous work and support it.  There still is a place for American missionaries (and they need support, too), but they should constantly be making disciples locally to carry on the work.  BTW, if an American missionary is doing their job right in a third world country their needs for support won't be much more than the indigenous, except that it is nice for them to be able to fly home or to other training/encouragement once in a while.  At the same time, I'd suggest that those local ministers could also use some trips to other cultures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan, keep up the great work.  It requires doing what you do to accomplish this, because you needed to see the man in ministry to know that he is truly doing Kingdom work, but you are spot on to find such indigenous work and support it.  There still is a place for American missionaries (and they need support, too), but they should constantly be making disciples locally to carry on the work.  BTW, if an American missionary is doing their job right in a third world country their needs for support won&#8217;t be much more than the indigenous, except that it is nice for them to be able to fly home or to other training/encouragement once in a while.  At the same time, I&#8217;d suggest that those local ministers could also use some trips to other cultures.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Cross</title>
		<link>http://iemissional.com/2008/05/09/post-denominationalism-the-kingdom-is-moving/#comment-1549</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Cross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 18:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iemissional.com/?p=103#comment-1549</guid>
		<description>If what is being said here is correct (and I believe that it is), then is it possible that to continue to support the current system, including our system of sending missionaries, is to actually oppose or work in a different way than the way that God is working in the world today? If that is the case, then why do we want to continue to support this system?

When we were in India a few weeks ago, I met an indigenous evangelist/church planter. He was working with a hospital that we were working with to do our clean water project. He was going along with our project to share Christ, raise up leaders, and plant churches. I met him and heard his story. He comes highly recommended for his work elsewhere. He also walks miles each day through the mountains to visit Hindus and share Christ with them. He is showing the Jesus film and has a strategy to disciple and raise up local leaders. He has received theological training at a Bible college in the plains. We decided to support him because he was doing the same thing as the IMB missionary who was also in the area. But, he was native, knew the language and the people, was trusted and accepted, walked miles each day, and only needed $800 for 6 months full support. 

The IMB would tell me not to do that because they don't want the indigenous church to become dependent on funds from the West. Long term, they have a point - to an extent. Yet, we have mobilized a large missions force of Westerners that is dependent upon support from the West. Why don't we use that same support and fund about 30 indigenous missionaries for the cost of funding one American? Or, use the American in a catalytic way to network with the indigenous church in a way that fuels the spread of the gospel like Guy seems to be saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If what is being said here is correct (and I believe that it is), then is it possible that to continue to support the current system, including our system of sending missionaries, is to actually oppose or work in a different way than the way that God is working in the world today? If that is the case, then why do we want to continue to support this system?</p>
<p>When we were in India a few weeks ago, I met an indigenous evangelist/church planter. He was working with a hospital that we were working with to do our clean water project. He was going along with our project to share Christ, raise up leaders, and plant churches. I met him and heard his story. He comes highly recommended for his work elsewhere. He also walks miles each day through the mountains to visit Hindus and share Christ with them. He is showing the Jesus film and has a strategy to disciple and raise up local leaders. He has received theological training at a Bible college in the plains. We decided to support him because he was doing the same thing as the IMB missionary who was also in the area. But, he was native, knew the language and the people, was trusted and accepted, walked miles each day, and only needed $800 for 6 months full support. </p>
<p>The IMB would tell me not to do that because they don&#8217;t want the indigenous church to become dependent on funds from the West. Long term, they have a point - to an extent. Yet, we have mobilized a large missions force of Westerners that is dependent upon support from the West. Why don&#8217;t we use that same support and fund about 30 indigenous missionaries for the cost of funding one American? Or, use the American in a catalytic way to network with the indigenous church in a way that fuels the spread of the gospel like Guy seems to be saying.</p>
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		<title>By: Guy Muse</title>
		<link>http://iemissional.com/2008/05/09/post-denominationalism-the-kingdom-is-moving/#comment-1538</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy Muse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 01:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iemissional.com/?p=103#comment-1538</guid>
		<description>The Jenkins quote, &lt;em&gt;If we are to live in a world where only one Christian in five is a non-Hispanic White, then the views of the small minority are ever less likely to claim mainstream status, however desperately the Old World Order clings to its hegemony over the control of information and opinion&lt;/em&gt; has been a reality for most of the 20 years we have served as missionaries on the field. I find it interesting to watch as the American Church is slowly coming to the realization that we are no longer the "big guns" in God's plans for the nations. The pivotal role we once held in shaping theology, doctrines, methodologies and practices was passed on many years ago. There are other forces and voices who have taken our place. Few believers in our context continue to look to N. American Christianity as the model to imitate. 

I do think S. Baptists have played a pivotal role in "raising our children" to the point that they are now no longer dependent upon us. As spiritual parents of the generations preceding, it is often difficult to accept that our "kids" no longer need us like they used to.  My role as a N. American, S. Baptist missionary is different than was that of my parents who came back in the early '60's. For me one of the big challenges of missions today is to try to understand the role we are now to be playing in a global movement of God to bring the nations to Jesus. I applaud your bold thinking as you continue to explore these issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Jenkins quote, <em>If we are to live in a world where only one Christian in five is a non-Hispanic White, then the views of the small minority are ever less likely to claim mainstream status, however desperately the Old World Order clings to its hegemony over the control of information and opinion</em> has been a reality for most of the 20 years we have served as missionaries on the field. I find it interesting to watch as the American Church is slowly coming to the realization that we are no longer the &#8220;big guns&#8221; in God&#8217;s plans for the nations. The pivotal role we once held in shaping theology, doctrines, methodologies and practices was passed on many years ago. There are other forces and voices who have taken our place. Few believers in our context continue to look to N. American Christianity as the model to imitate. </p>
<p>I do think S. Baptists have played a pivotal role in &#8220;raising our children&#8221; to the point that they are now no longer dependent upon us. As spiritual parents of the generations preceding, it is often difficult to accept that our &#8220;kids&#8221; no longer need us like they used to.  My role as a N. American, S. Baptist missionary is different than was that of my parents who came back in the early &#8217;60&#8217;s. For me one of the big challenges of missions today is to try to understand the role we are now to be playing in a global movement of God to bring the nations to Jesus. I applaud your bold thinking as you continue to explore these issues.</p>
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